New player, comments, feelings, etc...

[Axor]

Hi There,

I randomly found andor's trail looking for a RPG easy going game for my phone, and after finishing it ( i think i finished the storyline so far ) i wanted to leave my comments.

First a little background on me. I use to be a really hardcore player on MMORPG for many years, I been a high end player in Everquest, Everquest 2 ( specially here where i had a top 20 world character on my class ) and Worl of warcraft, and also other minor games like Final fantasy XI and few others that didnt hook me up for too long.

Said so, i quit playing for many reasons, life, work, family, getting tired of games, etc.. but i got a good knoweledge of how all of those games work in that time.

I even made some money on the first ones when high level players where sold for real money when you wanted to quit.

So back to andors..

I was sure i would like the game after the first 5 minutes playing. Is exactly what i was looking for, an offline game ( i play in planes often so i need to be able to play offline ) that was single player ( not feeling to get back to mmorpg because i know i will go hardcore again,.. cant play casual as much as i try ) and had that casual kind of playing so you dont need to take it to serious.

Overall the game is great, i would definetly pay for it if you ever release a full version.

I specially like the begining of the game, wich i think is much better than the latest aditions that seem a bit more "quick" made.

One of the things i felt is that you cannot just follow the story line like on classic rpgs like zelda, but you need to grind levels and or gold to be able to keep up with it.

let me make a list, it will be easier to explain: ( Please don't take this as an offense and just as an opinion expecting to be constructive )

- Good things
Game is easy playing not requiering full atention
Game would work on almost any smartphone ( simple )
Good story line and plenty of factions / decisions to take
Good skills and character progression
Good fight system
Good game system overall

- Bad things
I think its very focused on grinding, for example getting some of the best items is a matter of grinding when in my opinion it should be quest lines. Don't get me wrong... i grinded levels and items in all games, for very long.. i played some games for years, but this one seems like the only way to go, and specially on a single player game it makes not much sense to grind.
its missing item progression. You may be using the same weapon at lvl 15 that you will use at lvl 40, item sets every 10 levels make you dedicate more time to the game.
Also i remember how crazy difference made when i was lvl 10 or so and i bought damage rings, wich tripled my dmg in combat and made my life much much easier.
Leveling up is waaaaaay to quick. I like the system where you get improvements every level and every 4 levels you get skill points, but if you think that you can finish the game by lvl 30-35 ( im lvl 40 now and the only place that suposes a challenge is lodars cave just because they inmune to crits and im on a crit build ) you shouldnt be able to finish the game in 20 or 30 hours.
Runing back and forth.. this is a major problem, its so pointless. I don't think you should try to entertain making players run up and down cleaning mobs. Game play shouldnt feel like wasted time.. when i had to go to remgard ( Seriously... thats a bit too far? ) and just get there to get a quest ( Old Friends ) that sends me back to fallhaven for an update and then back to remgard and back to west to go to the cave... is a bit too much walking don't you think? In this matter i would suggest portals style of diablo saga, you need to get there once cleaning all the way, but you arrive and activate a portal so you dont need to repeat the whole thing again and again.
Item options are very few... and i don't think there is many balanced options, of course you can finish the game with any build, but is obvious that there is one or two best builds and then the rest.
Lack of classes, this game misses choices on clases, at least you should have 3 clases.. mage type, fighter type and archer type. Its not super hard to build up those balanced clases and then introducing class items makes the game options much wider. at the end with your builds you doing that.. Lets say the rogue can use only daggers or bows, the fighter swords axes and maces and the magicians wands and staffs. same for armours etc..

Last and not least, the developing of the game seems not to keep the standards.

the green maze may be cool for those who like grinding but to me is just a laberynth full of things.. not funny at all. Challenging yes, but not entertaining, i got bored and i had a map to look what way to go!

Imho the first 20 levels of the game where the best part of it and after it just became a grind fest to get stronger and be able to get through the maze faster and without a billion of potions.

I think this could be one of the biggest games in casual RPG, and i think it could be a "hit" and even become a classic, but i think you on the point where you need to make money and dedicate time and money on this game fi you want to take it to the next level.

as i said at the beggining is good enough to make me pay for a full version, and the system allows for many updates and expansions to keep you leveling, but obviusly needs more than 20 hours of content.

Oh i forgot! its a must for me that the game is open world, and you not forced to go in one direction

So kuddos to developers, and i hope you take the game to next level i think you can and you can make a good amount of money out of it because its a really good piece of wood that could become an art piece.

best,

PD: when you planing to release next update?

thanks

[nyktos]

welcome to the forums & great first post!!!



we are currently testing the alpha version of the next release,
so it shouldn't be too much longer... but - we aren't big on ETA's here.

i agree with some of your critique & i foresee changes in some of these areas before the final release.
the grinding will always be a part of the game...
and "warping" isn't likely to be implemented...
[although we have tossed the idea of a boat ride / horse & carriage for travel]


lastly, the game will always be free.

[PK17]

Welcome Axor.

This game is open source so everyone can be a developer in their own way, we could always use more help if you want to see things progress faster, or have more features added.

[Axor]

i know this is the wrong answer so i don't have enough time for developing nor im a developer ( more like a buy game and play whenever i can )

sorry!

i understand the game is open source, and that it will always be free just means that it will be always "casually developed" as people cannot dedicate full time to something for free.

its ok, thats the choice of whoever created it, but i think it has what it needs to be a succesfull ( money and fun wise )

maybe i apply for game testing .. i think i saw a post somewhere about that.

[Zukero]

Hello Axor, and welcome to the forums !
Constructive criticism is always welcome, and having experienced gamers feedback is very positive. If you stay around long enough, you'll understand how deep impact you can have on the game just by posting ideas & feedback !

i understand the game is open source, and that it will always be free just means that it will be always "casually developed" as people cannot dedicate full time to something for free.

its ok, thats the choice of whoever created it, but i think it has what it needs to be a succesfull ( money and fun wise )

The game being free & open source does NOT mean it will always be "casually developed" ! I think you make incorrect assumptions about the link between indie game development & money.
I am a fairly recent contributor, but I have been reading books & blogs about game design & game development for a long time, having worked on many projects ending up being vaporware. And I think I can speak for all the team when I say that we are NOT doing this casually. As a matter of fact, I have left all my other hobbies behind to dedicate all the time I can to the development of this project, and I am very passionate about making all that I can to make this project as professionally looking as possible.

IMHO, the fact that no money is made out of this project just helps to have very commited people on board, and allows us to take any risk in terms of game design that would not be possible in a money-driven environment ! Sure, we can't work full-time on it, but that just means the game will be completed in a few years instead of a few months.

To come back to your criticism, I'll have to disagree with some :
- While it's true that there's not enough good gear available, grinding for the extraordinary/legendary ones is only a hidden game-in-the-game, that you hear of only when you come to the forums, and is meant to keep the most addicted players with an objective between releases. There is work ongoing to put more quests on the beginning of the game, to prevent having too much required grinding for levels, so that players who just want to go through the storyline don't have to waste hours for a few level-ups.
- Leveling up is not that easy. Actually, it can be really long once your reach high levels (70+).
- Running back and forth may look like virtually extending game duration, but these are actually part of both the challenge & the needed progression to take on the next challenges.
- Teleportation has been asked MANY times. Oskar, our game designer and BDFL, said no, definitely no. I agree with him, but that's personnal.
- This is still a work in progress, and I think we have reached at most 50% of the main quest line. So game time will be much longer once the game will be completed.

One last point, you don't need to be a developer or anything to contribute to the game ! Writing a quest, or even simply the plot, is much welcome, and even by giving feedback like you did, you already contributed. Thank you for your time !

[Axor]

Thanks Zukero,

don't take me wrong, when i say casual development it has nothing to do with the quality of the development but with the time its dedicated to it.

I know you can do a professional game dedicating a few hours a week instead of 40+ it just takes longer as you stated and thats what i mean by casual.

Most of the games i played have 2 games or a game inside the game as you state, one for getting to the maximum level ( something i wanted to suggest aswell see below ) and one for once you are there, ( Grinding, raiding, etc.. )

Being a single player game, raids are not an option, so you need to keep the players hooked in a different way.

Let me give you some suggestions in that line :

1st.- Maximum level, i don't see the logic on the game having no level caps. Basically you killing your own play in the future, by grinding for those items you hit lvl 100 where nothing in game can be challenging anymore and forcing you to restart when a expansion or extension of the game comes out, or just go through it in a few hours as you kill in one hit. The suggestion is, lets say your level cap now is 35. That makes the game totally doable but challenging. on the next "extension" let's say you raise to 45 and therefore people will try to level up a few levels why following the story and grind the rest. Yo can say that the bad side will be high end players getting bored, but doesnt has to be like this.. i don't know how many years i played Diablo and i was surely maxed out.

2nd.- Special Habilities, A different way to keep players hooked is to add special habilities like in everquest 2 they did after a few years. This is basically orientated to high end players, when you reached the lvl cap, you could start gaining experience on another XP bar, every X amount of experience you will gain 1 special hability, ( for example every 50k experience, not too hard not too quick ) those would be small add ons to your character and they wont be game changing, but they have no end, so you can end with 200 or 500 Special habilities ( i think in EQ2 they where called AA ) and of course when you get that many it makes a difference. For example it could be +1 HP or +0,1 DMG or +0,5% atk, etc... at the end when you have a 100 of them, it makes a difference. This keeps players grinding like hell.

3rd.- Low level monsters should give no experience. This is logical and helps game play, from a roleplaying point of view, you don't really learn much when killing a Rat if you are Conan the barbarian, so creatures that are not challenging should give no Xp. This will slow down the leveling and force you to move on. For example let's say the snake cave stops giving exp at lvl 10 and flagstone monsters at lvl 15, etc... making you move on. You can Grind low level places for loot, gold and legendary items, but you will not get experience while doing that.

4th.- Armor / weapon Sets. This always works well. High end items that can come from quests wich involve many factors. In the line of the actual game you could create sets based on the different factions existing, Feygard, Shadow, etc.. let me use as an example the blackwater / Prim area where you already have something like it. Every quest i finish with blackwater or prim would give you faction points with this people, some quest even be repeatable ( like bring me 5 whyvern claws and get this money + faction ) then you build up your faction and get benefits. Lets say when you reach 50k points you are able to use beds there and the price of things reduces, then when you reach 150k you get access to new quests that would end up with Blackwater mountain armor set ( wich will be the best for that lvl range except the rare drop legendary items ) those quest will involve rare items drops, moving arround the world and killing boss mobs. Again let me use an example: "To Forge the blackwater epic sword we will need 1 rare heart of an alvino monkey from the far east, this item and this other one wich are sold in somewhere of the world, this special metal dropped only in the caves of blabla, and finally the claw of XuraTran ( hard mob at the end of a dungeon ) when you have all together come back to me and i will forge the sword." This will be same for a few items wich on their own are great stuff for the level, and if you get all the set, helmet, gloves, armor, boots and weapon it gives you an extra benefit, i remember in WoW it use to be like having 2 items gives this, having 3 gives that and that and having all gives this this and this. having the whole set could give what you call an actor efect.

I can't think of more, but with all the games i played im sure i can get bits and pieces from each and come with ideas if you feel "stuck" somewhere.

Basically in my opinion the game play has to be like this :

- You start as a newbie, you start just enjoying the game on its own.
- You get to understand the mathematics and improve your character to get better with the game rules
- You level up and keep trying to follow the quests
- You start the grinding for that item you really want ( legendary or quest, or gold etc.. )
- Eventually you finish the plot line and max out your lvl cap
- You start to make your character "epic" farming for special habilities and high end Gear
- Eventually after a few months you get an update with new areas to explore, new quests to do, and a whole new set of epicness to reach. let's say now you need to make 10 levels, you get a whole new set of Special habilities to start farming for, and your gear will need to be renewed wich leads you to stay hooked with the game for many more hours and eventually you will reach top again and wait for next expansion.

This system is how the most succesfull games work ( EQ, Wow, diablo.. ) and i think its proven to be a right way as it gives casual players the possibility to finish the game and quit, and hardcore players the possibility to take it to the next level.

I have to admit that this is not simple, and coding a game must be the most crazy time consuming thing, but im just thinking out loud my opinions, so don't take them as if im telling you what to do please.

I enjoyed the game and i thank you for that. It took me maybe a week to finish it, playing maybe 2 or 3 h per day. so i would say about 20 to 30 hours of gameplay. I just wish it was 100h like the old console RPGs use to state..

best,

[PK17]

There is a level cap, it is 400 or 401.

[nyktos]

(...) Oskar, our game designer and BDFL (...)

Classic!!!

I have to admit that this is not simple, and coding a game must be the most crazy time consuming thing, but im just thinking out loud my opinions, so don't take them as if im telling you what to do please.

you've got really good stuff here!
it brings back some fond memories too...



the best thing you could do here is voice your thoughts
especially when it triggers a response from the forum

i keep having random ideas just by going back through your posting
these fresh new brainstorms are the most exciting thing for us [maybe just me?] to read...
even just reading Zukero's thoughts bring more twisted ideas to mind.

it will be like trying to fit puzzle pieces together,
adding new elements to the game / without losing that AT flavor.
that challenge is half the fun!

[PK17]

LOL Zuk!!! I missed that......

Anyone who doesn't know,

bdfl = benevolent dictator for life.

It is a common term for the proprietor of an open-source game.

I havn't heard that in forever.... amazing how something like that can jog my memory and bring me back to the past for a minute

[fiernaq]

Heh, and here I thought BDFL meant Best Dev For Life (similar to Best Friend For Life).