Quickstrike Dagger - Overpowered?

[Sarumar]

Tsk tsk... all this talk of "negatives". Why nerf the QSD (a weapon which imho is just about right) when it's the other weapons that need a boost? Instead of changing QSD from a pretty good weapon to a terrible weapon that at least only takes 2AP with the JoF/MT why don't we fix the terribad weapons that are currently worthless and make their extra attack cost actually mean something by being more powerful than other weapons?

+1 i have 50 different weapons on my inventory and there are only few usable one... rest of them are just another piece of garbage...

[Pyrizzle]

Tsk tsk... all this talk of "negatives". Why nerf the QSD (a weapon which imho is just about right) when it's the other weapons that need a boost? Instead of changing QSD from a pretty good weapon to a terrible weapon that at least only takes 2AP with the JoF/MT why don't we fix the terribad weapons that are currently worthless and make their extra attack cost actually mean something by being more powerful than other weapons?

I like this idea, there are a lot of things in the game that are fairly useless but could be great if given a little change, but at the same time when we make weapons more powerful we will also need to change the NPCs stats too. wouldn't want to make it too easy.

Here are a few example of equipment that is pretty terrible and why:
Stone Cuirass: raises Attack Cost by 2
Wolfpack's Animal Hide: lowers AC by 15% and gives 2%bc while the hardened leather shirt gives 5% bc, both have dr 1
Irogotu's Necklace: actually pretty good for low level players, that DR 1 early on is amazing, but will quickly get replaced by the J.o.F.
Shadow Of the Slayer: high AP and not a high enough AD, but the life gain upon every kill is nice. Because of the high AP the most swings you could get in a turn is 2 (w/o use of potions)

[Mad P]

Here are a few example of equipment that is pretty terrible and why:
Stone Cuirass: raises Attack Cost by 2
Wolfpack's Animal Hide: lowers AC by 15% and gives 2%bc while the hardened leather shirt gives 5% bc, both have dr 1
Irogotu's Necklace: actually pretty good for low level players, that DR 1 early on is amazing, but will quickly get replaced by the J.o.F.
Shadow Of the Slayer: high AP and not a high enough AD, but the life gain upon every kill is nice. Because of the high AP the most swings you could get in a turn is 2 (w/o use of potions)

You can add the ElyR to that list. Not as bad though, but after all the trouble of getting it, this weapon "just doesn't have it". It did, way back in v0.6.8. But with the introduction of skills its special ability of raising AP didn't mean anything anymore.

In the future more weapons will be popular, with the new weapon specialization benefits.
In addition, maybe we could make the large collection of daggers & swords more different from each other by adding special effects like giving a lousy-until-now dagger a +50% AC and AD bonus versus undead or a "lucky sword" that raises your magic finder skill with 5% when wielded.

[Antison]

Tsk tsk... all this talk of "negatives". Why nerf the QSD (a weapon which imho is just about right) when it's the other weapons that need a boost? Instead of changing QSD from a pretty good weapon to a terrible weapon that at least only takes 2AP with the JoF/MT why don't we fix the terribad weapons that are currently worthless and make their extra attack cost actually mean something by being more powerful than other weapons?

Sounds good to me. I'm thinking the ELyR is a good candidate for an upgrade.

[Mino]

Tsk tsk... all this talk of "negatives". Why nerf the QSD (a weapon which imho is just about right) when it's the other weapons that need a boost? Instead of changing QSD from a pretty good weapon to a terrible weapon that at least only takes 2AP with the JoF/MT why don't we fix the terribad weapons that are currently worthless and make their extra attack cost actually mean something by being more powerful than other weapons?

Another +1 from me, and some great examples from Pyrizzle too. And it's no big surprise but I'm with Tek on wanting to see the ElyR get upgraded.

[Wyrmspawn]

Maybe we should hold a vote... fot the benefit of the developers, to see if players think the ElyR should be upgraded. Or maybe we could just lower its status to an extraordinary item, make it easier to obtain.

[hollyamberlamb]

I like it just the way it is, it is my most favorit weapon so far.

[Wyrmspawn]

I'm not denying the excellence of the ElyR, just saying that when you classify it as a 1:10000 drop chance item, you should at least make it more awesome for the trouble of obtaining it. It's not much easier to obtain than the ROL, which has a more interesting effect than the ElyR. Then there's the ROLS, the only leftover legendary item in the game. Also much more useful, healing you once every single round. If you're going offensive, the ROL and ROLS are the best items in the game. But the ElyR has no such usefulness. Take, for example, the balanced steel sword. 5 more AC, one less ap cost, and not even rare. So, having heard the above arguments, should the ElyR be upgraded?

Come think of it, this debate happened somewhere on the forums already. But I forgot where exactly.

[ncer]

I've never been as much a fan of crits as most seem to be, hence my original build aimed for abusing QSD. I wouldn't say QSD is overpowered now, I reckon it has always been pretty high on the power curve. My second build that aimed more towards defense always felt like it was about 10-15 levels slower (as in the first build could make its way through to BWM around level 25-30 while the same route was only doable for the second build around 35-40). The trouble with the all in on QSD approach is that lacking defense you will get hit a lot whenever the creature gets to go first. Basically, it has its weaknesses too. By the time you get to higher levels, around 60 or so, you have enough skills and level increases to pretty much compensate for your weaknesses and if you plan it out well you can probably do that a little earlier too (I did start that build way before skills got into the game, so I did not have the HP increase right from the start). However, that's pretty much the point where any tactic should start to become pretty good, better than almost anything you face in the game. Even my very defensive second build that hardly cared for increasing damage output needed little more than that.

So, I don't really think QSD is overpowered, however it definitely is at the high end of the scale, certainly beyond some of the harder to get items, the ElyR most importantly. I think it makes sense to have items at various power levels, there is no need for everything to be good. In fact bad items are an educational tool for teaching new players the game, how would they know something is good if there's nothing bad to compare it to? I think making sure the rarest items in the game are at the high end of the scale makes sense, after you've grinded and grinded to get your ElyR you want a good reward, but many shop items would not need to be improved. I also don't think shop items should be stricktly worse than more rare items, though perhaps shops selling the very best items should have only 1 of them and be few and far between. I think the QSD might be located a little too close to the starting point of the game (though this was even worse in previous versions), but otherwise I would leave it alone. Flavor wise I think a dagger like the QSD makes sense in a large city where you would expect many pickpockets. If I remember correctly it was originally sold in the thieves' guild? Flavor wise that makes sense to me, but in an even bigger city, maybe when one of them gets completed move it there? I think one is planned in the top left of the large grass area where you run into a guard on a bridge and another is planned in the bottom right of the current map? Both will probably be far enough away from your starting point especially if some tougher enemies are added before you get into them.

[Antison]

I'm not denying the excellence of the ElyR, just saying that when you classify it as a 1:10000 drop chance item, you should at least make it more awesome for the trouble of obtaining it. It's not much easier to obtain than the ROL, which has a more interesting effect than the ElyR. Then there's the ROLS, the only leftover legendary item in the game. Also much more useful, healing you once every single round. If you're going offensive, the ROL and ROLS are the best items in the game. But the ElyR has no such usefulness. Take, for example, the balanced steel sword. 5 more AC, one less ap cost, and not even rare. So, having heard the above arguments, should the ElyR be upgraded?

Come think of it, this debate happened somewhere on the forums already. But I forgot where exactly.

+1
I could not agree more!!!