Venomous dagger V Flagstone's Pride

A place for general discussion about the content and gameplay of Andor's Trail.
marinebrit
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Re: Venomous dagger V Flagstone's Pride

Post by marinebrit »

The easy answer is neither! :D

At least until you have a very high base attack. I have never given up on my trusty Steel Sword!

:o :shock: :?:

I shall explain. (There is a summary at the bottom, if you want to skip to it, but here is my argument).

:geek:

First, let's consider the damage dealt by these weapons, assuming a totally average situation (i.e., exactly 10 crits every 100 hits for the Pride, with an average spread of damage)...

Weapon Att Dmg: Crit: 10-Hit Dmg with base of:
Min Max Ave % x 1 5 10 15 20 25 30 50 100
Flagstone's Pride 21 1 6 3.5 10 2 49.5 93.5 148.5 203.5 258.5 313.5 368.5 588.5 1138.5
Venomous Dagger 20 1 2 1.5 20 3 35 91 161 231 301 371 441 721 1421
Steel Sword 24 3 7 5 0 0 60 100 150 200 250 300 350 550 1050

The Sword has the edge on both other items up to a base Damage (here this means as all else equipped before the weapon) of around 15, when the Dagger gets slightly ahead. The Pride soon edges out the Sword too, but the difference is slight, and it is never better than the Dagger.

SO, job done. Steel sword until base damage of 15, then switch to the Venomous dagger.

No. Not quite. There is also a difference in the attack chance bonus, which I will now factor in...

:ugeek:

Weapon Extra Hits Dmg Crit 1000-Attack Dmg with base of:
in 100 attacks Ave % x 1 5 10 15 20 25 30 50 100
Pride 1 3.5 10 2 1053 1989 3159 4329 5499 6669 7839 12519 24219
Dagger 0 1.5 20 3 700 1820 3220 4620 6020 7420 8820 14420 28420
Sword 4 5 0 0 1440 2400 3600 4800 6000 7200 8400 13200 25200

I've looked at damage caused every 1000 attacks here assuming that the monster has a block equal to your base attack (here again meaning as equipped only without the weapon). Thus, you have a 20% chance of hitting with the Dagger and an Extra 1% (21%) with the Pride. I have done the calculation over 1000 hits so this extra 1 hit in 100 can be 10 in 1000, to make the consideration of the critical easier (it works out as 1 additional critical in 1000 attacks for the Pride).

Here, the benefits of the Dagger diminish slightly. The Pride is slightly stronger, but it is still never the best option. In this case, it never even beats the Steel sword! The additional hit chance offered by the sword also means it does more damage, on average, than the Dagger up to a base damage of 20, and even then the difference is small. It does start to make a difference around a base of 25.

So, we are done now, then. Steel sword until a base damage of 25, then switch?

Maybe.

There is one final consideration. And that is the number of attacks the monster you are fighting gets on you! SO, the less hits it takes to kill him/her/it, the better.

:ugeek:

And here it is:

Base Attack:10 Hits to kill monster with xx HP
Weapon 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
Min Max Max Min Max Min Max Min Max Min Max Min Max Min Max Min Max Min Max Min
Flagstone's Pride 11 32 2 1 3 1 4 2 5 2 6 2 7 3 8 3 9 3 10 4
Venomous Dagger 11 36 2 1 3 1 4 2 5 2 6 2 7 2 8 3 9 3 10 3
Steel Sword 13 17 2 2 3 2 4 3 4 3 5 4 6 5 7 5 7 6 8 6

Here I have assumed the very best and worst performance of the weapons per hit on a monster with no damage reduction. I'll return to THAT point in a minute. The table above considers: (1) the number of hits required to kill a monster of the give HP if your damage is the worst you can do with a base of 10 plus your weapon of choice (Max); and (2) the number of hits required to kill a monster of the same HP if you do the maximum damage, including a critical hit, if available ON EVERY HIT. (NOTE: Bigger base attacks simply slide all the numbers to the right, eliminating all difference at the lower monster HP levels, but the pattern remains the same.)

There is little to separate the Dagger and the Pride here. Both can also (if you get a critical EVERY time) beat out the sword for quick kills. But what if you're having a bad day? The Steel sword is, again, your friend, needing a lower maximum number of hits before sending a monster down. So, when things are not going well, the monsters will still have fewer attacks on you!

It should be noted that monster damage reduction will also the number of hits required, but unevenly, with the maximum number of hits required increasing more than the minimum number of hits, because you loose a slice of each hit. An example: a monster with HP-50 and DR-4. It still requires at least 2 hits on the Pride and the Dagger at their maximum, but now at least 4 hits with the Sword. HOWEVER, with the lowest hits on each, the Pride and Dagger will now take 8 hits to bring the monster down, while the worst you can do with the Sword will take it out after only 6 hits).


Phew... all done.


SO, to summarise:
The Sword does more damage more often than either the Pride or the Dagger until your base damage (here, again, meaning everything except your weapon) gets to about 25, when the Dagger might become a better option.
PLUS the sword guarantees that you will bring down monsters faster, no matter how badly your random damage is turning up, meaning the monster will, on average, get less strikes back.

:idea: ;)


Anyone want to discuss? Let me know if this was helpful! :D
marinebrit
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:55 pm
android_version: 2.2

Re: Venomous dagger V Flagstone's Pride

Post by marinebrit »

Tables, reformatted:

Average Damage Dealt:
Weapon................ Att........ Dmg........ ........ .... Crit...... 10-Hit Dmg with base of:
........ ........ ........ ............ Min... Max... Ave... %... x.... 1........ 5........ 10...... 15...... 20...... 25...... 30...... 50...... 100
Flagstone's Pride.... 21........ 1....... 6....... 3.5... 10... 2.... 49.5... 93.5.... 148.5. 203.5.. 258.5.. 313.5.. 368.5. 588.5. 1138.5
Venomous Dagger... 20........ 1....... 2....... 1.5... 20... 3.... 35.... 91....... 161..... 231.... 301.... 371..... 441.... 721.... 1421
Steel Sword........... 24........ 3....... 7....... 5...... 0.... 0.... 60.... 100.... 150...... 200.... 250.... 300..... 350.... 550.... 1050



Damage in 1000 attacks:
Weapon.... Extra Hits.... .... Dmg.... Crit.... .. 1000-Attack Dmg with base of:
............... in 100 att's.... .. Ave.... %... x....... 1....... 5......... 10......... 15....... 20....... 25....... 30........ 50......... 100
Pride......... 1.... ............... 3.5.... 10.... 2.... 1053.... 1989.... 3159.... 4329.... 5499.... 6669.... 7839.... 12519.... 24219
Dagger...... 0.... ............... 1.5.... 20.... 3.... 700...... 1820.... 3220.... 4620.... 6020.... 7420.... 8820.... 14420.... 28420
Sword....... 4.... ................. 5...... 0..... 0.... 1440.... 2400.... 3600.... 4800.... 6000.... 7200.... 8400.... 13200.... 25200



Monster kill rates:
Base Attack: 10.... Hits to kill monster with xx HP
Weapon...Damage ....... 20......... ....... 30......... ..... 40......... .... 50......... ..... 60......... .... 70......... ...... 80......... ..... 90......... ...... 100.........
............ Min... Max..... Max.... Min.... Max.... Min.... Max.... Min.... Max.... Min.... Max... Min.... Max.... Min.... Max.... Min.... Max... Min.... Max.... Min
Pride..... 11..... 32....... 2....... 1....... 3........ 1....... 4....... 2....... 5....... 2....... 6....... 2....... 7....... 3....... 8....... 3....... 9....... 3....... 10....... 4
Dagger.. 11..... 36....... 2....... 1....... 3........ 1....... 4....... 2....... 5....... 2....... 6....... 2....... 7....... 2....... 8....... 3....... 9....... 3....... 10....... 3
Sword... 13..... 17....... 2....... 2....... 3........ 2....... 4....... 3....... 4....... 3....... 5....... 4....... 6....... 5....... 7....... 5....... 7....... 6....... 8......... 6


;)
Samuel
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Re: Venomous dagger V Flagstone's Pride

Post by Samuel »

You got good points here. :) (still got no thumbs up smiley)

1) You may use the code tag to format your tables properly:

Code: Select all

Col1 Col2
a    b
c    d
2) There are 2 more candidates to consider: bare fists or the mighty quickstrike dagger
3) What if the monster will die the next turn and you get a crit. Its a useless crit.
Every time you get a crit. and do massively more damage to a monster then you would need this would be lost power.
4) You had good considerations but some of them are a little bit "unmathematically". I think the correct mathematic way of some of this stuff is really hard! (especially the numbers of attacks you may take from a monster.)
But I really like your thoughts.

I think the crit. stuff is overestimated often. I usually rely on constant weapons too.
I consider the steel sword and the quickstrike dagger the currently best weapons in game.
Level: 101, XP: 18780586, Gold: 358739
HP: 398, AC: 303%, AD: 84-95, AP: 4, ECC: 12, CM: -, BC: 13%, DR: 0
RoLS: 2, ElyR: 1, RoL: 1, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 2, VSH: 1, WMC: 0, GoW: 0
Mino
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Re: Venomous dagger V Flagstone's Pride

Post by Mino »

I thought your research was very interesting too, too bad I sold off the steel sword, but at least I can buy that one back (unlike the venomous dagger).

But I think a lot of this will change in v0.6.10 with the skill points because of:
1) critical multiplier and critical chance skills
2) boost AD skill (to get that based AD past 25 faster)
3) increase available AP (more hits regardless of weapon, especially with Jewel of Flagstone)

In addition to #3, if you're grinding by the cabin near BWM you could stock up on minor speed potions, then that also gives you more attack chances.

For now, I've been sticking with Pride of Flagstone just because I don't have either of the other 2 weapons. I have the quick strike dagger and I'm thinking of using it after I get more AD. I definitely like the extra chances you get to strike.

Edit: after reading the replies here, I tried out the quick strike dagger again, and found it pretty effective now that I've managed to level up my AD to 22.
Lvl: 206 XP: 159262572, Gold: 1657119, RoLS: 2, ElyR: 1, RoL: 1, ChaR: 2, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 6, SRoV: 1, VSH: 6, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 241, AP: 3, AC: 562%, AD: 116-130, CM: 3.0, ECC: 38%, BC: 139%, DR: 3

QL 25, MF 3

12/26/18
mortis07
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Re: Venomous dagger V Flagstone's Pride

Post by mortis07 »

i'm trying to find the quick strike dagger.. can anyone give me a hint which village its in?
Samuel
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Re: Venomous dagger V Flagstone's Pride

Post by Samuel »

Search in the fallheaven tavern.
Level: 101, XP: 18780586, Gold: 358739
HP: 398, AC: 303%, AD: 84-95, AP: 4, ECC: 12, CM: -, BC: 13%, DR: 0
RoLS: 2, ElyR: 1, RoL: 1, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 2, VSH: 1, WMC: 0, GoW: 0
mortis07
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:14 am
android_version: 2.3 - Gingerbread

Re: Venomous dagger V Flagstone's Pride

Post by mortis07 »

oh yeah i stumbled on it between my last post and this.. thanks tho. :D
issac888
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 9:14 am

Re: Venomous dagger V Flagstone's Pride

Post by issac888 »

guys , reading the recent forum, i notice oskar focus attention on the superior iran dagger, it is not bad and have no side effects of the quick dagger

and it is cheap

but i still think steel sword is the best
Level: 75, XP:7715779 , Gold: 538730
HP: 80, AC: 159%, AD: 36-40 AP: 3, CC: 0%, CM: -, BC: 130%, DR: 0
RoLS: 0, ElyR: 0, RoL: 0 rocks 3550,weak poison 272
Antros
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Re: Venomous dagger V Flagstone's Pride

Post by Antros »

Rory Mac wrote:Andor's Trail is a strategic game, a battle of wits if you will. You have to weigh your decisions, sometimes in light of the unknown. Every decision, both good and bad, will have an impact on the game and your character. If the opportunity were given to correct a poor decision made early in the game, I think that would lessen the value to those who made the better decision in the same situation. I realize this may sound a little harsh, but I feel that if you made the poor decision to sell your venomous dagger, an item that was designed to only drop once per game, then you should suffer the consequences of that choice. As I recall, the number of gold pieces you receive for it is pathetically small. The equivalent to wacking a few more snakes or beetles, I think.

Just my opinion.

Or you could end up like me and accidentally selling it before equipping it, but not realizing it till you had already left the vendor. :(
issac888
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 9:14 am

Re: Venomous dagger V Flagstone's Pride

Post by issac888 »

very interesting reading,

you guys did you analise iron dagger, anyway the sword is the best !
Level: 75, XP:7715779 , Gold: 538730
HP: 80, AC: 159%, AD: 36-40 AP: 3, CC: 0%, CM: -, BC: 130%, DR: 0
RoLS: 0, ElyR: 0, RoL: 0 rocks 3550,weak poison 272
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