Venomous dagger V Flagstone's Pride

[kendraso]

I can agree with you on the whole "you make decisions and have to live with em", except that's not intuitive from the start of the game. Players generally don't realize how good Venomous Dagger + Jewel of Fallhaven is, and since they get Venomous Dagger *so early* in the game, it's easier to sell it to pay for a +6 Damage Ring than to keep it *in case* something good comes along.

I think the problem comes from not understanding the few aspects that make Andor's Trail borderline broken. I didn't download the game because I wanted to tweak out a perfect AC-only, dagger-weilding, jewel-totting beast. I wanted an enjoyable game that wasn't Bubble Burst that I could pick up and play from time-to-time. Making a phone-based game that has severe consequences like that should be written out somewhere.

Maybe at the start of the game, mention something in Mikhail's dialogue that "your decisions cannot be reversed in this universe, so choose wisely" or something. I had no idea that the dagger would be good. When I compared it to the Steel Sword, it sucked. I had not seen and/or didn't know anything about the Jewel of Fallhaven yet. Considering that, was it stupid that I sold the weapon? I don't think so. I would suggest that it's idiotic that the best weapon in the game is essentially found in like the 2nd dungeon that I began clearing very early in the game.

Hence the replayability aspect, learning to utilize the multiple save slots, or simply being a packrat..you make choices in other rpgs that are irreversible, why should this game be any different? Me thinks you are more upset with yourself for selling it than you are upset about how the game operates. Which isn't a bad thing, choices in life cannot usually be undone. And even so, their rarely simple to change. I understand this is a game, but by having choices like Oskar has put in, makes this a less linear game, thus making for a slightly more diverse experience.

[qasur]

I can agree with you on the whole "you make decisions and have to live with em", except that's not intuitive from the start of the game. Players generally don't realize how good Venomous Dagger + Jewel of Fallhaven is, and since they get Venomous Dagger *so early* in the game, it's easier to sell it to pay for a +6 Damage Ring than to keep it *in case* something good comes along.

I think the problem comes from not understanding the few aspects that make Andor's Trail borderline broken. I didn't download the game because I wanted to tweak out a perfect AC-only, dagger-weilding, jewel-totting beast. I wanted an enjoyable game that wasn't Bubble Burst that I could pick up and play from time-to-time. Making a phone-based game that has severe consequences like that should be written out somewhere.

Maybe at the start of the game, mention something in Mikhail's dialogue that "your decisions cannot be reversed in this universe, so choose wisely" or something. I had no idea that the dagger would be good. When I compared it to the Steel Sword, it sucked. I had not seen and/or didn't know anything about the Jewel of Fallhaven yet. Considering that, was it stupid that I sold the weapon? I don't think so. I would suggest that it's idiotic that the best weapon in the game is essentially found in like the 2nd dungeon that I began clearing very early in the game.

Hence the replayability aspect, learning to utilize the multiple save slots, or simply being a packrat..you make choices in other rpgs that are irreversible, why should this game be any different? Me thinks you are more upset with yourself for selling it than you are upset about how the game operates. Which isn't a bad thing, choices in life cannot usually be undone. And even so, their rarely simple to change. I understand this is a game, but by having choices like Oskar has put in, makes this a less linear game, thus making for a slightly more diverse experience.

I'm not upset that I sold the weapon, I can tell you that, but I think it should still be understood from a new player's perspective too.

I should add that many of my comments are made as though I was "new" to the game. I think that's important to understand.

One of my best aspects in life is just being able to look at things from other points of view, and general the "less intuitive" POV. It's very important that new players (or people who may not be the brightest crayons in the box) would be able to both understand the gameplay, and enjoy it. Now, the designer cannot sacrifice their "idea" of how they want to make their game/world/etc, but they should definitely bend if the need presents itself.

In this situation, any new player doesn't know that this Smartphone-based RPG has an "irreversible" concept going on because it says nothing about it. They will also not pick up on how powerful some of the weapons in the game are, like the Venomous Dagger, because the Jewel Of Fallhaven is far too expensive. They would probably consider not using that and try something different. I did when I started. At such a low level, I didn't need JoF... I needed decent armor and more BC to survive the lower-level monsters, like wolves and snakes. I foolishyly put points there because I didn't now how to make the "perfect" character at that time (basically focus on AC and Attack Damage, ignoring BC). So, to the general gamer looking for just a fun game to play here and there, they'll probably try to create a well-balanced character because that works in every other RPG (just not Andor's Trail). In that vain, they could see JoF as a wasted attempt at more BC. I did when I started.

When I first came here, my character was designed to "take no damage". I was using Irogotu's Necklace (DR 1), the Stone Cuirass (DR 1), and I think there a shield with DR 1 (can't remember). Either way, I was rocking the highest BC equipment I could get that also had total Damage Resistance of 3 for my character. What did this do for me? Well, the Stone Cuirass used a lot of my AP, so I decided to switch to one of the AP6+ weapons with the highest AC, highest DMG range, and with Crit % & multiplier (I think I was using the Heavy Iron Club or something). I also had one +6 Damage Ring and one +15% AC ring (again, trying to make a "balanced" character).

Was this character perfect? No, but was it totally bad? No. It was slow though. I managed to take a few less hits (not a lot, but enough to notice some). Plus, lots of damage from many sources was basically 1-2 or just flat out 0, so I didn't take much damage at all (I never used Bonemeals, just Meats and had only 30 HP too). It was a different character, and slow. One attack with roughly ~120% AC. This character was slicing up the Gargoyle caves looking for a RoLS, but I couldn't hack it in BWM. Way too slow and I still took lots of critical hits (which basically made trying to build a "balanced" character useless).

At this point, I was reading on the Forums here and decided to make changes. I swapped out the Damage Resistance gear for a Jewel of Fallhaven, Steel Sword (no V.D. or F.P.), the high BC% shield, and went with two +6 Damage rings instead. These changes alone made my character more than 100% better, probably 200%. I was dealing three-to-four-times the damage I was doing before (3 swings, each at a possible +6 more damage), and I rarely noticed the loss of +15% AC because I was swinging 3 times as much. I level like 3 times in the time it was taking me to level once, and each of those went into AC (quickly replenishing the lost AC I game up on the ring-swap), and after another 10 levels, I've added like +30 HP, more to AC, and am working on AD some too.

So, it's good to think of the game from a beginner's eye, but at the same time, you have to keep a watch out for your experienced RPG players and your seasoned players (in order for them to continue playing *and* enjoying the game).

[Rory Mac]

I guess what I can't understand is why? You're a brand new player playing a new game. There are no extensive instructions so you know you gotta learn as you go. When I first entered the snake cave, I'd rush in, kill a few snakes, then run back to town to replenish my HP. As I recall, it was darn scary once I finally decided to try and make it all the way into the depths of the snake cave. I kill the boss and this dagger drops. I look at it, compare it to the steel sword, or whatever it was I was wielding at that time, and tossed it aside (figuratively) in disappointment. I agree, at that time, all I was doing was trying to acquire gold to upgrade my equipment. But at the same time, I was accumulating all these rat tails and insect bodies and wasp wings and gems. I didn't know what the heck they were for. Yeah, they were worth a couple of gold coins in trade, but I kept thinking, what if I sell them, and then I need them later in another part of the game that I haven't been to yet? I thought about selling the dagger too, but when I saw that all I could get for it was 12 gold coins I figured, nah, not worth it. I might need it for something later. I'm just glad that it wasn't worth 100 gold, cause if it had been, then I might have sold it. I gotta believe it is intentional that Oskar has made the unique items worth so little to sell. You want a hint... that's your hint. He knows that at that point in the game, all we know to do is accumulate gold and upgrade our equipment. If he had priced the dagger at its true value, most of us would have sold it at that early juncture. Instead he makes you think do I really want to give up this unique item for only 12 gold, or should I just go kill a couple more wasps or ants? Some will still choose the greedy route, and others will tread a little more carefully. It's genius if you ask me. I mean, sure, he could have had the dagger drop and red lights start flashing with a big sign that says "DON'T SELL THIS. YOU'LL REGRET IT LATER!" But I think most of us would agree that would take all the fun and challenge out of the game. Like I said before, you've got to think and plan ahead. Make allowances for what you don't know yet. If you make a hasty decision, you pay the price. I think that's the way if should be.

So... why the heck did you sell that dagger for only 12 gold???

[Samuel]

So... why the heck did you sell that dagger for only 12 gold???

Good post. I also dont understand why you all messed up your savegame when you only sold this dagger.
The dagger is perhaps 10% or perhaps even 30% better than the other items. Why is this so fatal?

If you didn't read here in the forum about it you wouldn't know it is better than what you have actually...

[Mino]

So... why the heck did you sell that dagger for only 12 gold???

In my case, I sold anything I didn't need (or in this case, didn't realize I'd need/want later on) because every little bit of gold helped to buy better equipment, at the beginning. And I didn't start coming to these forums until a month or 2 after I'd been playing.

It never even occurred to me that the bosses were a one-time only fight and that you couldn't go back and fight for the same item to drop again.

But as I said, I still like how this game makes you live with your choices, it gives it more depth. And if the next update includes the extra save slots, I might consider starting a new game to go through everything knowing what I know now, although I'm not sure if I'll split off into separate saves for choosing sides since it could become too much to manage. As it is, I have 2 games, each nearing level 40, but I'd probably be closer to 50 if I just had the one character to focus on.

[TennisBall]

Like I said before, you've got to think and plan ahead. Make allowances for what you don't know yet. If you make a hasty decision, you pay the price. I think that's the way if should be.

I can understand this line of thought for making quest decisions where choosing a "side" will cause a story line to change, and cause quest rewards to be different.

I personally did not even step foot in the snake cave until I had finished all the quests in Villegard...and by that time I had found these forums and learned of the cave and the weapon. Had I found the snake cave early on, while I was still trying to figure out if I liked the game and also trying to figure out the game mechanics, I probably would have sold that dagger as well. And even had I understood the game mechanics...I would have assumed a better weapon would definitely come along.

For items that a character uses in combat, should it not be reasonable to assume that the farther you go in the game, stronger items will become available to battle the stronger monsters? Is a player supposed to reasonably assume that a weapon attainable at level 8 (or there-abouts) will continue to be the "best" weapon available at level 50? Is this really a logical assumption? It isn't to me. As a character levels up and moves to new areas, so should the quality of the available gear improve. I do think that this is a unique case though and more of a weapon balance issue that should be fixed.

[allanon]

Interesting discussion. I too sold the venemous dagger early in the game because it appeared inferior.
Im still not convinced its any better than flagstones pride anyway.
I never worried when I sold it as I figured there will be plenty of better weapons later in the game.
And maybe thats the solution - there should be some better weapons available in future releases and there may well be.
Fingers crossed!

[slayer]

Well this debate will soon be over for good at any rate. The devs are planning to do away with the much loved/hated venomous dagger. See here: http://andors.techby2guys.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=942

[qasur]

Well this debate will soon be over for good at any rate. The devs are planning to do away with the much loved/hated venomous dagger. See here: http://andors.techby2guys.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=942

Oskar isn't doing away with it, just making it not as good. Changing the stats so it's not the end-all-be-all weapon in the game.

Also, for those who *use* the Venomous Dagger (or would have liked to, but sold it), I think the discussion veered into if this was a good idea or not because Oskar said after tweaking the Venomous Dagger, he would also introduce another version of it with a new name that would be Sold in a shop somewhere so players could acquire it again, or just get back the weapon they're used to using.

[qasur]

So... why the heck did you sell that dagger for only 12 gold???

Good post. I also dont understand why you all messed up your savegame when you only sold this dagger.
The dagger is perhaps 10% or perhaps even 30% better than the other items. Why is this so fatal?

I see what you're getting at about being *slightly* better and how that doesn't have to make much difference, but if something exists that a player can get and use that is even as low as 5% better than what they're currently using, then it's worth it for them to eventually pick up (especially if the game slows down between releases).

This is basically the reason why players see the RoLS as being better than a +6 Damage ring. 3 damage and 15 AC are equal in levels to a +6 Ring, so the critical and Regen are what make it 10% better.

If you didn't read here in the forum about it you wouldn't know it is better than what you have actually...

This is true, but if a player gets stuck on a quest or finds the "end" of content, they might decide to go looking for walkthroughs and/or updates, etc, and would come across the Forums/Google Code page. From there, they'll learn how much different the game is than they were currently playing it. However, this basically applies to addicted players, not casual as-you-go ones.

The as-you-go players probably would not care as much, but at the same time, one little slip-up might get them looking for answer to getting an item back only to learn they can't, and they decide to stop playing the game. People give up on things for less, so I never discount anything when it comes to possible turning people's interest in your product off.