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Fight the bonemeal patrols, add belts…

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 7:09 pm
by Judoka
Hello Everyone:

I would like to start contributing code to the project. I am an experienced systems engineer; my background emphasizes C and POSIX, but I have occasionally worked on Android apps. I have cloned the git repo and compiled a working A.P.K. from the AT_Source_Next_Release branch.

I have three ideas to start, below. I kindly request two types of feedback before I begin:
  1. ideas and commentary from players as to plot, playability and whatever players feel important to express in the storyboard stage, e.g., new or better ideas for quest challenges, rewards, etc.; and
  2. feedback from the development team to increase the likelihood and ease the granting of pull requests, e.g., "we are planning something else for that N.P.C. that conflicts with your idea, but you could [do X] instead."
My three distinct and freestanding ideas are…
  1. Introduce belts as a new equipment type—
    • The player's equipped belt would appear in the Items view, between the equipped gloves and equipped footwear.
    • Either the player witnesses the invention of the belt during the game narrative, or, upon loading previous versions' saved games, backfill a useless belt, e.g., "Piece of weathered twine."
    • The quest to obtain the first belt(s) could involve Kayla (Stoutford haberdasher), Bidro (Fisherperson near Remgard) or both.
    • The quest to obtain the first belt(s) could also involve Halvor (from Surprise?) or perhaps a new non-player character (N.P.C.) sibling of Halvor.
    • The first belts could be largely utilitarian, e.g., lowering A.P. costs to equip or use items in combat.
    • One of the first rare belts could increase the number of quickslot positions from three to five.
    • Later belts could have magical properties.
    • A "Black belt" could be tied to the monk fighting style.
    This idea may require, but does not necessarily require—
    • a new N.P.C.;
    • new art for the new N.P.C.; and
    • new maps.
    This idea would require some new art:
    • a graphic for the empty belt slot under "Worn equipment" and
    • graphics for belts.
  2. Further develop the pouncing Feygard patrols that confiscate bonemeals—
    • Pounce and search remain as they currently are unless and until the player—
      1. completes Beer Bootlegging (chooses an alignment as to Feygard) and
      2. completes Roses (Lady Hannah of Guynmart).
    • Thereafter—
      • If the player is Feygard aligned or perhaps has some combination of Necklace of Feygard's Glory, Ortholion's talisman and Ortholion's signet—
        1. the player is first presented the option to fight the patrol:
          • fighting the patrol (re)sets the player's alignment against Feygard; and
          • fighting the patrol triggers the other plot path, below.
        2. If the player declines to fight the patrol—
          1. the patrol notices the player's friendly alignment before searching the player, so no loss of bonemeal potions;
          2. the patrol is then apologetic to the player;
          3. the patrol says, "We are trying to catch a grave-robbing smuggler trafficking bones and bonemeal on the Duleian road"; and
          4. the patrol offers the player a quest (pun in the name intended):

            Last Rights
            "A Feygard patrol asked me to catch a grave robber smuggling bones and bonemeal on the Duleian road."

            The smuggler turns out to be Athamyr, custodian of the Fallhaven catacombs, who is working with Thoronir, Fallhaven's shadow priest.

            The player chooses either to—
            1. rat out Athamyr and Thoronir to the Feyds, in which case—
              1. the player's alignment is (re)set to pro-Feygard;
              2. Athamyr and Thoronir are placed in the Fallhaven jail;
              3. bonemeal potions are no longer available from Thoronir, but Lodar's bonemeal potions remain available;
              4. the player receives considerable XP; and
              5. the player receives a new unique Feygard item; or
            2. lie by telling Feygard the smuggler got away with what was his final shipment, in which case—
              1. the player's alignment is (re)set against Feygard;
              2. Thoronir reduces the player's cost for bonemeal potions;
              3. the player receives less XP than the other option, above; and
              4. the player receives a new unique item from Thoronir.
            • Either way the bonemeal patrols cease because Feygard is convinced the smuggler has stopped.
            • Any change in the player's alignment does not reopen closed quests.
            • The player could fight one patrol and then decline to fight a second patrol, thus accessing both quests, but only if the player aligned with Hannah and Geomyr. (Once the patrols stop, no method remains to fight a patrol to access that plot line.)
      • If the player is aligned against Feygard, the player is given the option to fight the patrol:
        • It is a very hard fight, like the graveyard adjusted for a higher-level player—try to warn perma-death players ahead of time.
        • The player starts off surrounded by the patrol.
        • Success brings a good XP reward (appx. a million) and good loot.
        • Success is recorded under Unusual experiences and achievements, e.g., "I fought the law, and I won: I dispatched a team of Feygard soldiers who pounced on me to take my bonemeal potions."
        • The player then becomes a fugitive until the completion of a quest:

          On the lam
          "Feygard is furious that I killed one of its patrols to keep my bonemeal potions. I must elude capture and somehow turn down the heat—perhaps I should call in a favor at Guynmart Castle?"

          While the player is a fugitive—
          1. Feygard dispatches frequent patrols looking for the player, especially on main roads and especially near the Crossroads Guardhouse;
          2. perhaps Feygard puts up posters with the player character's image;
          3. perhaps Feygard builds a gallows at the Crossroads Guardhouse;
          4. some NPCs try to turn in the player; and
          5. no innkeeper allows the player to rest.
          Until the player is exonerated some trading partners decline to trade with the player, especially—
          1. Feygard-aligned trading partners and
          2. those geographically close to Feygard.
          To complete the quest, the player must—
          1. Go to Guynmart Castle and speak with Hannah's (new) husband.
          2. Hannah's husband asks for half the player's gold and unequipped items, as a form of bail, to stop the patrols.
          3. If the player sided with Hannah and Geomyr, Hannah's new husband Lovis—
            1. explains that he suspects the patrol the player killed was not what it seemed;
            2. expresses sympathy for the player's plight;
            3. says he could not simply overlook the killing of law enforcement, but if the player can substantiate Lovis's hunch about the patrol, then the player has committed no crime; and
            4. tasks the player with—

              Rescue the rescuers
              "Lovis suspects the patrol I killed was all imposters. He wants me to bring him proof. Only then shall I be exonerated."

              The player circuitously discovers the real patrol held hostage, then chooses either to—
              1. rescue them, in which case—
                1. the player's alignment is (re)set to pro-Feygard;
                2. the player receives considerable XP; and
                3. the player receives a new unique item from Lovis; or
              2. kill them then lie to Lovis, telling Lovis the player found the patrol already killed, in which case—
                1. the player's alignment is not (re)set to anti-Feygard (Feygard never learns of the player's choice);
                2. the player receives less XP than above; and
                3. the player receives a new unique item off one of the dead patrol members.
              Either way the posters of the player's character and the gallows disappear, and the bonemeal patrols continue.
          4. If the player sided against Hannah and Geomyr, Hannah's new husband Unkorh—
            1. explains he was going to stop the bonemeal patrols anyway—they were Geomyr's idea;
            2. expresses sympathy for the player's plight; but
            3. also says he can not simply overlook the player's apparent killing of law enforcement; and
            4. tasks the player with—

              Who watches the watchers?
              "Unkorh suspects the patrol I killed was corrupt. He wants me to bring him proof. Only then shall I be exonerated."

              The player circuitously discovers that the patrol was selling the bonemeal potions it confiscated and pocketing the gold, using Agthor (Feygard N.P.C. off the Duleian Road), Benbyr (enemy of the sheepherder, located at the Crossroads Guardhouse) or Erinith (from Deep wound), or some combination thereof, as a fence.

              The player then chooses either to—
              1. rat out Agthor/Benbyr/Erinith to the Feyds, in which case—
                1. the posters of the player's character are replaced with posters of Agthor/Benbyr/Erinith;
                2. the gallows remain at the Crossroads Guardhouse, now intended for Agthor/Benbyr/Erinith;
                3. Agthor/Benbyr/Erinith, now on the lam, disappear, possibly depriving the player of a trading partner;
                4. the player receives considerable XP; and
                5. the player receives a new unique item from Unkorh; or
              2. give enough to prove the patrol was corrupt, but spare Agthor/Benbyr/Erinith, in which case—
                1. the gallows and the posters of the player's character disappear;
                2. Agthor/Benbyr/Erinith remain(s);
                3. the player receives less XP than above; and
                4. the player receives a new unique item from Agthor/Benbyr/Erinith.
          5. Once the player completes the assignment, Hannah's husband returns the player's possessions and ends the On the lam quest, too.
    This idea requires neither new maps nor NPCs and—
    1. creates six new unique items, at most two of which the player receives;
    2. may require new art (wanted-style posters and gallows); and
    3. further develops the bonemeal, Feygard and Guynmart narratives.
  3. Something involving the Fallhaven potionmaker, who suddenly can not afford a life-saving item for himself:

    This idea furthers the game's karmic aspects, as the potionmaker has consistently refused to give life-saving care to needy persons unable to afford it. The player would have to choose whether to assist the potionmaker or leave the potionmaker to the obvious fate.
I thank you for your time, consideration and ideas,
by /s/ Judoka.

Re: Fight the bonemeal patrols, add belts…

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 7:39 pm
by Nut
Thx for sharing your ideas, it's always welcome 8-)

My first reaction about fighting the patrol was: no,
But you have interesting plots that should be read thoroughly before judging...

Also the belt could be nice. I don't see it's possible to enhance the number of quickslots dynamically. And 'magic' belts is a trigger word. The player won't ever cast magic, although he can use magic rings. Likewise I can imagine magic belts, but not a belt who enables casting spells.

Playing with the fate of the Fallhaven priest or the potioner sounds dangerous for breaking existing quests.

You seem to have a talent to choose rather difficult things as first contributions :lol:

That's my first thoughts, but give us some time to read thoroughly

Re: Fight the bonemeal patrols, add belts…

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 8:28 pm
by Judoka
I thank you for your prompt reply. Please take your time.

I was unsure which direction the game was heading with magic, given the early Vacor quest, the recently added witch quests and other references to magic. That said, I am not advocating for player-casted spells.
The "magical properties" of the belts would be fine as similar to the magical rings. And I envision belts with magical properties unrolling slowly with the game narrative.

Belts just seem missing in a game where I equip gloves, headwear, footwear and rings. I mean, what holds up my pants? I also see it as an opportunity to do utilitarian things, like belts I.R.L.

I am yet to dive into the code to see, e.g., how the quickslots are done. From an outside programmer's perspective, however, I know of nothing inherent to the quickslots that seems impossible to transition to a dynamic system. Modern devices have enough screen space for more quickslots. If the player unequips the five-slot belt, slots four and five simply disappear unless and until the player re-equips an item that gives the extra slots.

But if the juice is unworthy of the squeeze to change to dynamic quickslot allocation, no big deal. I could proceed with belts and forgo the additional quickslots.

I believe I understand your concern about breaking other quests—and it is exactly the type of feedback I needed and requested. Would it be sufficient to add a requirement that those quests be completed before the player is offered the quest that could imprison Thoronir? Or, as we have seen, the Fallhaven jail is not inescapable. Like the Brimhaven dam, would it be sufficient to allow the player to bribe the guards to let out Thoronir?

As to the potionmaker, I see two options: 1) require that all the quests involving that N.P.C. are completed before the new quest is offered or 2) ensure the potionmaker survives no matter what the player chooses. Or do both.
Again, please take your time. I am in no hurry. Better to code something once with the necessary guidance than have multiple revisions before it's pulled.

I thank you,
by /s/ Judoka.

Re: Fight the bonemeal patrols, add belts…

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 8:54 pm
by Antison
In terms of the bonemeal patrol (BMP), I really think you have a lot of great ideas here, but I'm really apprehensive of a lot of it because I really feel strongly that if the player continues to carry bonemeal and break the law continuously, they should be punished for this on each and every time the bonemeal patrol shows up. Don't like the idea of the player being able to avoid this punishment.
The whole reason for the BMP was added was because the player is able to continuously break the law with no consequences. A lot of these ideas would reintroduce that capability and I just simply don't like that idea.

Re: Fight the bonemeal patrols, add belts…

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 9:24 pm
by Judoka
As it stands, I wager many if not most of those players are not really punished. They simply save before traveling the Duleian road and load the game if they get caught.

Plus, if the player sides with Unkorh, who expressly mentions Geomyr's controversial edicts in his appeal to the player, then Unkorh prevails, why would the patrols continue endlessly? It negates the impact of the player's choice against Geomyr and Hannah.

It also pre-empts the player from fighting hostile NPCs. As I understand A.T., the focus is presenting choices. In this instance, enforcing a particular subjective moral view (with which not everyone agrees) by refusing to allow the player to fight specific NPCs who are trying to take items from the player's inventory without the player's consent, seems inconsistent with the higher design consideration of self-determination. It is worth noting the player may choose to kill other Feygard soldiers.

If the idea is that the choice to use and carry bonemeal has a significant consequence, would it not be better to incorporate that consequence into the primary plot of the quests?

Re: Fight the bonemeal patrols, add belts…

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 9:32 pm
by Antison
I'm sorry but I don't like the idea of the BMP stopping. We've been telling the players for years that bonemeal is illegal and there's going to be a punishment for using it and this is just one of those punishments and I don't want it to go away

Re: Fight the bonemeal patrols, add belts…

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 9:47 pm
by Judoka
As I wrote, above, I am not advocating for player-casted spells.

I also noted the need for new art to implement this idea.

And skirts have belts. See, e.g., https://www.windsorstore.com/products/g ... TAEALw_wcB.

Re: Fight the bonemeal patrols, add belts…

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 10:12 pm
by Antison
Another thing to think about is what the new belt types are going to do to all of the armor types and how will the skills affect this new item type.

We have to use open sourced and open licensed images.

The bottom line is adding a new item type is a lot of work.

And I'm completely against magic as well. you have a belt that provides an actor condition then fine but no magic.
But the problem with belts is that it's going to require us to modify the UI to show it on the overview screen with the rest of the equipment.
Not to mention we do not have a single "belt" sprite.
Plus the female sprite is wearing a skirt. 🙂

Re: Fight the bonemeal patrols, add belts…

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 10:48 pm
by Judoka
I understand adding a new equipment type requires considerable work. I am volunteering to do that work, collaboratively, with the exception of the art. I would certainly need help with the art.

As to balancing the armor types, etc. I propose that belts will be largely if not entirely utilitarian, i.e.—
  1. They rarely, if ever, affect attack chance, block chance, critical skill or damage resistance.
  2. The natural fit seems for the early belts to reduce things like the A.P. costs of equipping weapons and using items in combat, and, e.g., if the juice is worth the squeeze, adding two or three more quickslots.
Then, as the game narrative progresses, how about, e.g., belts that affect—
  • categories of N.P.C. interactions, like commerce with particular individuals; or
  • categories of monster interactions, like belts that particular types of monsters fear or that put a target condition of fear on particular monster types when hit?

Re: Fight the bonemeal patrols, add belts…

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2024 1:29 am
by sdevaney
Nice post, these are some very interesting ideas. Looking forward to see what everyone comes up with.