More -X AP items

[Numba1Gunner]

I think the game could use more -X AP/attack items.

Only having one (i.e. the jewel of Fall Haven) leaves the game somewhat one dimensional in that respect in my point. It makes the Jewel of Fall Haven way over powered for an item you can get so early on in the game. Do we really want that pendant you get right away to be the best thing in the world throughout the game?

I know it would be a big change but I think it can be made fairly.

1. Remove the -1 ap from Jewel of Fall Haven, replace it with some other positive effect, but not the most powerful, that early.

2. Either don't make -X ap items purchasable, or make them really darn expensive.

3. Make more -X ap items, with values possibly greater than 1, and mixed with other attributes. (all of these should be rare drops or unique items on difficult quests/unique shop items with really high prices)

4. Implement a 2 AP per attack minimum to avoid 10/12 attacks per turn, and avoid the conundrum of 0AP attacks. the -2AP or -3AP would still be great to allow for more swings of larger items.

5. There could also be limits to how many -AP pieces you can wear at once if so desired, but having some flexibility would be nice. (I think this Jewel of Fall Haven has permanently left an imprint around my neck)

[Mino]

I have to respectfully, but strongly, disagree with #1.

I don't think the Jewel of Fallhaven should have its -1 AP stat removed, but I wanted to point out that it already fulfills the requirement of #2, being really expensive. If I remember correctly, it was over 3,000 gold.
That might not seem like much now, for anyone who's been playing a lot from early in the game and has gone through all the quests or been grinding for L & E items, but when I first saw it in that shop, I had to kill a lot of monsters and sell a lot of meat, boots, fur, etc. to get that necklace.

The thing that might make it seem OP is when its used with a critical hit weapon, because of the extra chances you get for the multiplier, but that's more an issue with the critical hit system, which is already being discussed. Other, non-critical weapons that do major damage (outside of some L & E items) have a high AP cost to begin with (5, 6, even 7 or 8).

I think adding other items that reduce AP cost could make things too easy, but having just the Jewel is fine. If you want to entice people to use other necklaces, give them stats to make them more tempting.

Some suggestions (I'd use a few of these, but it also depends on your character's build)

Necklace of greater strike - +10% critical chance (twice as much as regular Necklace of strike), +10% AC
Necklace of first strike - gives 50% more chance of getting first attack when coming into contact with a monster, +10% AC
Greater shielding necklace - +15% BC, +2 DR
Necklace of recovery - reduces the amount of time to recover from a monster-inflicted character condition by 3 rounds (but not from self inflicted conditions like minor speed), +5 HP

[Samuel]

4. Implement a 2 AP per attack minimum to avoid 10/12 attacks per turn, and avoid the conundrum of 0AP attacks. the -2AP or -3AP would still be great to allow for more swings of larger items.

I like the ideas, especially the one above.
Perhaps even make 3 AP the minimum!

[Mino]

4. Implement a 2 AP per attack minimum to avoid 10/12 attacks per turn, and avoid the conundrum of 0AP attacks. the -2AP or -3AP would still be great to allow for more swings of larger items.

I like the ideas, especially the one above.
Perhaps even make 3 AP the minimum!

I thought this was already the case. The lowest AP weapon is the quickstrike dagger, and the AP cost is 3 (or 2 with the JoF). Even going unarmed leaves you with AP cost of 3 (without the JoF, and 2 with it). And both of those options add 0 AD, so its supposed to be a trade off. Arguably that trade-off is easier to make as you level up, but its still there.

[Numba1Gunner]

4. Implement a 2 AP per attack minimum to avoid 10/12 attacks per turn, and avoid the conundrum of 0AP attacks. the -2AP or -3AP would still be great to allow for more swings of larger items.

I like the ideas, especially the one above.
Perhaps even make 3 AP the minimum!

I thought this was already the case. The lowest AP weapon is the quickstrike dagger, and the AP cost is 3 (or 2 with the JoF). Even going unarmed leaves you with AP cost of 3 (without the JoF, and 2 with it). And both of those options add 0 AD, so its supposed to be a trade off. Arguably that trade-off is easier to make as you level up, but its still there.

As for as I know, this is only effectively the case, not explicitely the case. There are no item combinations that could possibly lower AD/attack lower than 2, so a lower limit is a non-issue.

What I am suggesting, and what I believe Samuel was seconding is the idea of making an explicit character limit of AP/attack no less than 2 (or maybe 3).

This would mean if I was bare-hand fighting (3ap) with a -2AP necklace instead of having a ap/attack of only 1, it would hit the minimum cap and stay at 2.

This would allow the game to include -2AP, -3AP, -4AP items without running the risk of any one getting a ridiculous AP/attack of 1 or 0

getting more -AP could still be good though in helping to wield high AP items, OR preparing in advance for the dreaded fatigue condition.

[Numba1Gunner]

I have to respectfully, but strongly, disagree with #1.

I don't think the Jewel of Fallhaven should have its -1 AP stat removed, but I wanted to point out that it already fulfills the requirement of #2, being really expensive. If I remember correctly, it was over 3,000 gold.

I know it wasn't "easy" to get, but you still got it early am I right? I'm guessing you saw it in Fallhaven on your first trip, saw how sweet -1AP could be, and almost immediately went on the grind. I know I did.

I also know that ever since grinding for and obtaining the Jewel of Fall Haven that is the one and only necklace/pendant I have warn the entire game. And until another item can give the same in-game benefit as -1 AP per attack, it is the only necklace ever will wear.

Sure I tried out each new piece of neck gear that I found, but I switched back within 5 minutes you can count on that. and from reading the forums I am absolutely positive that the majority of players have gotten the same amount of use out of Jewel of Fallhaven

Sure we have seen it from the beginning so we don't want to see it's legacy tarnished, we don't want to see it's greatness rivaled. But from a game quality stance it just doesn't make sense to have the "best" possible piece of equipment at its location available so early in the game. Especially if the only impediment is gold. It might not be fast to get the Jewel of Fall Haven early in the game, but it's not hard, anyone can go grind on some ants, snakes, and wild dogs long enough to get the meat to afford the precious Jewel of Fall Haven, but the game would be much more variable if the necklace people wore throughout the game changed.

Otherwise we can just remove neck gear from the game completely, and scale all attack AP costs down by 1, and no one would know the difference.

Edit:
Maybe the Jewel of Fall Haven can still appear in the Fall Haven shop, and still have the -1 AP cost attribute, and maybe it can be the only item with -AP, but at least then make it cost something other than gold. Some sort of rare commodity that doesn't come around until later in the game. Let it be a tease or a goal to work towards through normal progression. But as it stands I feel it makes neck gear an obsolete "choice" for the vast majority of AT players.

[Mino]

I have to respectfully, but strongly, disagree with #1.

I don't think the Jewel of Fallhaven should have its -1 AP stat removed, but I wanted to point out that it already fulfills the requirement of #2, being really expensive. If I remember correctly, it was over 3,000 gold.

I know it wasn't "easy" to get, but you still got it early am I right? I'm guessing you saw it in Fallhaven on your first trip, saw how sweet -1AP could be, and almost immediately went on the grind. I know I did.

I also know that ever since grinding for and obtaining the Jewel of Fall Haven that is the one and only necklace/pendant I have warn the entire game. And until another item can give the same in-game benefit as -1 AP per attack, it is the only necklace ever will wear.

Sure I tried out each new piece of neck gear that I found, but I switched back within 5 minutes you can count on that. and from reading the forums I am absolutely positive that the majority of players have gotten the same amount of use out of Jewel of Fallhaven

Sure we have seen it from the beginning so we don't want to see it's legacy tarnished, we don't want to see it's greatness rivaled. But from a game quality stance it just doesn't make sense to have the "best" possible piece of equipment at its location available so early in the game. Especially if the only impediment is gold. It might not be fast to get the Jewel of Fall Haven early in the game, but it's not hard, anyone can go grind on some ants, snakes, and wild dogs long enough to get the meat to afford the precious Jewel of Fall Haven, but the game would be much more variable if the necklace people wore throughout the game changed.

Otherwise we can just remove neck gear from the game completely, and scale all attack AP costs down by 1, and no one would know the difference.

Edit:
Maybe the Jewel of Fall Haven can still appear in the Fall Haven shop, and still have the -1 AP cost attribute, and maybe it can be the only item with -AP, but at least then make it cost something other than gold. Some sort of rare commodity that doesn't come around until later in the game. Let it be a tease or a goal to work towards through normal progression. But as it stands I feel it makes neck gear an obsolete "choice" for the vast majority of AT players.

You're right that as soon as I saw the Jewel of Fallhaven, and realized what that -1 AP could do, I spent all my game time grinding to get gold and sellable items so I could buy it.

And you're also right that none of the other necklaces can match it, so most of us will never trade it out for anything else. But if there was something like the "Necklace of first strike" I suggested, I'd probably switch it out because thanks to skills like Combat Speed and Cleave, and the Minor potion of speed, there are now other ways to get more attacks from our weapons even without the Jewel. The only thing missing is a necklace that offers benefits that are more tempting than what is currently available.

I'm fine with making an actual rule of AP not dropping below 2, no matter what. If the minimum limit becomes 3 though, then the Quickstrike dagger might not be worth the loss of 20% BC.

[qasur]

I really like the suggestions here.

Actually, instead of making the JoF worse, just make a "better" one latter in the game. At some point, you find an AP -1 and DEF +25 necklace, and it would be a big improvement over what the JoF already offers.

In the same vein, I do like the idea of Necklace (or other equipment) that offers -2 or -3 AP, but bears a minimum AP to attack with. It could create a really cool set of armor based on that affect. Like, a bunch of equipment of that says "AP +1" and stuff, but have a weapon that says "AP -3 (minimum 2)" or something. That way you could find a way to finally wear some of the AP +1 armor without a true negative. And if you spread out these items through harder-and-harder to reach areas, then it's like a "hidden quest" for an awesome suit of armor and equipment.

[lady black]

I agree with qasur. You really need that extra swing early in the game when you are so vulnerable to even ants and rats, much less snakes. The price is high enough that you have to level up at least a couple of times to save up that much, and you have other things you need at the same time, also expensive. Don't change the jewel of Fallhaven, just add better things later in the game. And, yes, the base limit should be 2.