fiernaq wrote:There needs to be a stopping or at least slowing down point to prevent most people from just stacking QL to no end.
Why? Who does it hurt if someone wants to use every skill point they get on QL?
Personally, I don't see anyone doing that unless its purely for a test build, but if they want to, why is it important to you (or anyone else) to stop them?
The best thing to stop people from using just the QL skill is already in the game - other, more enticing skills. Even people with high QL (myself, and I'm guessing Sarumar) still took other skills like Combat Speed, Increased Fortitude, Regeneration, or Corpse Eater. But once you get your "must have" skills, QL starts to look pretty good.
Some of the "high level" skills have a lot of pre-requisites, and in my case most of them are not skills I would normally get, so they're not for me. I was excited about Taunt, but after a point if I'm killing most things in my first turn, I won't really need it, and getting it requires the use of 7 skill points which means 28 level ups that make your base stats more powerful. And 7 is the lowest number for the "high level" skills (both Internal Bleeding and Taunt require 6 other skills before they're available). So for me, QL is more worth it.
The other thing I think balances it out is that the higher your level the more XP you need to get to the next one, so even if you keep using QL at every skill point, unless you do it right from level 4, there's still going to be some grinding involved but most people who like RPGs don't mind doing some grinding for XP.
Actually there's grinding involved anyway, even with the maximum QL level the XP increase is enough to offset it. Basically: after a QL increase it's slightly easier to get to the next level, but the next 3 will require more kills, so on the whole there is a slight increase as you get to higher levels. Only if there was some kind of exponential increase in QL you might catch up on the XP increase. I first thought QL gave you 5% on top of whatever XP you were getting before, in that case you start outrunning the XP increase at around level 500 or so if I remember correctly.
I also have a non-grinding build waiting for new additions to the game, he's a little over level 60 without QL. He's mostly that high because I felt like getting a RoLS. which took incredibly long. Fortunately newer monsters have been more challenging and while he can survive anywhere in the game it's far from a walk in the park.
@fiernaq:
What is wrong with "just stacking QL"? What do you care if someone else has a build that's higher powered than yours? Unless you really want to get on the Highscore list but don't feel like putting in the work? I find grinding relaxing so I do it every now and then for that purpose. QL makes it more fun as you see the levels increase quicker, what's wrong with making the experience more fun for me?
Possibly you're right that early QL levels could give more benefits, but don't make it come at a cost to higher levels.
fiernaq wrote:There needs to be a stopping or at least slowing down point to prevent most people from just stacking QL to no end.
Why? Who does it hurt if someone wants to use every skill point they get on QL?
Personally, I don't see anyone doing that unless its purely for a test build, but if they want to, why is it important to you (or anyone else) to stop them?
The best thing to stop people from using just the QL skill is already in the game - other, more enticing skills. Even people with high QL (myself, and I'm guessing Sarumar) still took other skills like Combat Speed, Increased Fortitude, Regeneration, or Corpse Eater. But once you get your "must have" skills, QL starts to look pretty good.
Some of the "high level" skills have a lot of pre-requisites, and in my case most of them are not skills I would normally get, so they're not for me. I was excited about Taunt, but after a point if I'm killing most things in my first turn, I won't really need it, and getting it requires the use of 7 skill points which means 28 level ups that make your base stats more powerful. And 7 is the lowest number for the "high level" skills (both Internal Bleeding and Taunt require 6 other skills before they're available). So for me, QL is more worth it.
The other thing I think balances it out is that the higher your level the more XP you need to get to the next one, so even if you keep using QL at every skill point, unless you do it right from level 4, there's still going to be some grinding involved but most people who like RPGs don't mind doing some grinding for XP.
+1
ncer wrote:Actually there's grinding involved anyway, even with the maximum QL level the XP increase is enough to offset it. Basically: after a QL increase it's slightly easier to get to the next level, but the next 3 will require more kills, so on the whole there is a slight increase as you get to higher levels. Only if there was some kind of exponential increase in QL you might catch up on the XP increase. I first thought QL gave you 5% on top of whatever XP you were getting before, in that case you start outrunning the XP increase at around level 500 or so if I remember correctly.
I also have a non-grinding build waiting for new additions to the game, he's a little over level 60 without QL. He's mostly that high because I felt like getting a RoLS. which took incredibly long. Fortunately newer monsters have been more challenging and while he can survive anywhere in the game it's far from a walk in the park.
@fiernaq:
What is wrong with "just stacking QL"? What do you care if someone else has a build that's higher powered than yours? Unless you really want to get on the Highscore list but don't feel like putting in the work? I find grinding relaxing so I do it every now and then for that purpose. QL makes it more fun as you see the levels increase quicker, what's wrong with making the experience more fun for me?
Possibly you're right that early QL levels could give more benefits, but don't make it come at a cost to higher levels.
+1
I need 5M+ exp, just for another level so QL is just a little help
If you're over lvl 40 then the answer is simple: we don't currently have any content for you. That's why lvling is so slow for you and why every monster you encounter you just roflstomp and move on your way. Higher powered monsters will give more XP making QL once again a handy skill but not required. Sarumar, when you're killing monsters that give 15k XP it'll only take you 334 kills to gain a level. You could do that in your sleep without QL.
QL is designed to boost your experience gains beyond the normal. The normal XP gained per monster kill of content that you are the right level for should be enough that lvling is possible. Figure 1-3 hours of questing, wandering around killing a few things, and a little bit of grinding in order to gain a level.
fiernaq wrote:If you're over lvl 40 then the answer is simple: we don't currently have any content for you. That's why lvling is so slow for you and why every monster you encounter you just roflstomp and move on your way. Higher powered monsters will give more XP making QL once again a handy skill but not required. Sarumar, when you're killing monsters that give 15k XP it'll only take you 334 kills to gain a level. You could do that in your sleep without QL.
QL is designed to boost your experience gains beyond the normal. The normal XP gained per monster kill of content that you are the right level for should be enough that lvling is possible. Figure 1-3 hours of questing, wandering around killing a few things, and a little bit of grinding in order to gain a level.
15K exp .... what ... how... and most important thing where i can get those kills
In this game you do not need QL at all.... IMO Currently it is quite weak skill, but if it any stronger the whole game will be too easy...
If there will be some changes in this skill i suggest opposite way to re desing it. Something like:
-level 1 +2%
-level 2 +6%
-level 3 +12%
-level 4 +20%
-level 5 +30%
-level 6 +42%
-level 7 +56%
-level 8 +72%
-level 9 +90%
-level 10 +110%
-etc... more is merrier
..But IMO current QL is fine enough... you cannot have overpowered or too fast learner build with this skill.
Last edited by Sarumar on Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fiernaq wrote:If you're over lvl 40 then the answer is simple: we don't currently have any content for you. That's why lvling is so slow for you and why every monster you encounter you just roflstomp and move on your way. Higher powered monsters will give more XP making QL once again a handy skill but not required. Sarumar, when you're killing monsters that give 15k XP it'll only take you 334 kills to gain a level. You could do that in your sleep without QL.
I respectfully disagree. I'm over level 40, and and still happy with the monsters and quests. Also, keep in mind, if you want any of the high level skills, any one of them alone would force a player to get to at least level 35, but must people also want IF and regeneration. So content wise, after getting what are considered the basic starter skills that nearly everyone gets, taking any of the high level skills means going well past level 40.
I think QL is fine as it is. Of course I won't mind if it gets boosted, but right now, you can level up fast enough without it early on so the other skills are more worthwhile, and at later levels it's just good enough to compete with the other skills.
By "content" I was referring to locations and monsters. We're quite ahead on skills with more than enough to satiate a lvl 100+ player easily but as far as monsters go, there's nothing challenging beyond level 40ish and even that's assuming you don't have a very good build for the monsters you're fighting. Content is challenge... if you can blink and accidentally kill a monster then that particular monster is not designed for your level. Consequently, if monsters stop posing a challenge beyond level 40 then they aren't designed for players above lvl 40.
Now, I'm not entirely against redesigning our current monsters although I do think that we have a mostly complete progression from lvl 0 all the way up to around lvl 40. Perhaps we have more monsters than necessary for the 30-40 group and not enough for the 20-30 group but both of those ranges are still possible. The point is, the XP required to lvl up grows rather quickly as Sarumar can easily attest to but the XP you get from killing monsters seems to go up much slower and that causes the whole 20-40 range to actually take some time and effort in order to lvl up. I would posit that that's a good thing and is actually the difficulty you should expect while leveling whereas the 1-20 area seems fast - although as I mentioned before that's probably also a good thing just to get people's feet wet and get them a taste of skills early on.
The problem is that we simply run out of monsters and quests that require anything beyond level 40. So yes, in a finished state, we probably will have monsters that give 15k XP per kill and they will also probably require that you be somewhere around level 300 in order to stand a chance of beating them. In general game design, 1000 kills is considered to be the slow end for leveling meaning that if it takes you 1000 kills in order to gain a level then that game is set at a slow pace. 100 kills is considered rather fast and generally 300-500 kills is considered to be just about right. Fast enough that people can progress without growing bored but slow enough that they don't wind up lvl 9000 in a matter of hours. Of course, not only should we be setting a pace based on # of monsters killed but we should actually be setting an expected range per level so that for example 1-20 is considerably faster to level up than 20-40 but that after that it evens out until level 100 at which point it takes a bit longer to level... you get the idea.
Quick Learner is a skill which should be taken in order to increase your rate of leveling beyond the expected rate. It is for this reason that it needs to be capped in order to prevent someone from continually stacking it to the point that your character levels far faster than the game design permits. If you want it to take an hour per level then allow for a range as possible so that with maxed out QL it may only take half an hour but cap it there. This is all part of basic game design theory... You want to allow players some freedom but give them too much freedom and they either break the game or begin to play it in a fashion you didn't expect which means you didn't allow for it in the code which means they experience it in a different (possibly worse) way than you intended.
To me, the content is the story progression more than than monsters. So if being able to kill monsters faster means I can focus more on the story or puzzles (like the teleporter) of the quests, then that makes the game more enjoyable to me.
But I still don't see why it so important to cap other people from going as high as they want to with QL. If you think level 40 is the most needed to finish the game, then by all means impose a cap on yourself. And leave those of us who have fun leveling up as high as possible to continue doing so.
Firenaq,
You should probably either recheck your math or actually find out what ql does.
Either way, I'm with suramar, ql needs buffed. The accelerating returns is nice and should make the skill more useful at higher levels instead of somewhat useless to absolutely useless at higher levels.
+1 suramar and you get a gold star
-1 firenaq and you get extra math homework assignment
.... what ... how... and most important thing where i can get those kills 